Panel session on the environment at Congress 2006

Congress 2006 - Panel session on the environment:

Tuesday 12^th September 2006

The President: On the Panel we have the Secretary of State for the Environment, the Rt. Hon. David Miliband, we also have as a fellow panellist Tom Delay, Chief Executive of the Carbon Trust, and ensuring that the debate focuses on trade union issues, Paul Noon, General Secretary of Prospect and Chair of the Trade Union Sustainable Development Advisory Committee, and facilitating questions from delegates and responses from the panel will be Frances O'Grady, Deputy General Secretary. Over to you, Frances.

Frances O'Grady: Thank you very much, President. Thank you, David, for that interesting speech. David, your government is famous for setting targets. How about setting a target for jobs? Are you going to set a target for a number of new jobs to be created in new renewable energy industries with the kind of active industrial strategy that this Congress has been taking about could deliver?

David Miliband: It is interesting. There are now 400,000 people working in environmental industries in the UK at the moment, which I think is up (and Tom can correct me) from about 250,000 about 10 years ago. If you compare that to the rest of Europe, for example, Germany has 1.5m people working in environmental technology industries. I think the right approach, though, is to say what is the target for environmental improvement? Then, what is the jobs benefit, the output benefit, the productivity benefit, the wealth benefit? We have a very very clear target. It is that we need to reduce by 60% carbon dioxide emissions from the 1990 levels by 2050 and that is supported by the TUC, the CBI, and a range of the voluntary organisations. That is the minimum we have to do. I think it is from there that you derive your drive on jobs, on productivity, and the rest of it. Certainly, the idea that you choose an environmental future or an economic future is completely wrong, the most successful societies in the future are going to be those that are environmentally at the cutting edge.

Frances O'Grady: Thanks, David. David also mentioned in his speech a reference to climate change champions or what I think we would call environmental workplace reps. The Minister was posing a challenge to us, Paul, to train up and get more reps out there in the workplace on this agenda. Are we up for it?

Paul Noon: Absolutely, Frances, and I say that not just on the basis of wishful thinking but on the basis of examples, which we know are there. This booklet, The First Steps to a Greener Workplace, which has been distributed to all delegates and we can provide more copies, it is all recyclable, sets out some practical examples of what unions have done: my own union, the Scottish Agricultural Colleges, PCS in Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs, unions working together at United Utilities, projects which have been successful, which have involved members and which have as an end result meant that less carbon has been released. We know that we can do it. Our challenge now is to bring about the step change.

It is great that Tom Delay is here from the Carbon Trust because using the Carbon Trust grant we plan to build on what we have already done to increase the action that is there. We know this is a trade union issue because people working individually ask, can they make a difference, but working together (and again in the booklet we set out practical actions that can be taken) working collectively, which is what trade unions are all about, we know we really can make a difference. This is natural territory for us. We have always been as unions concerned about health and safety, and welfare in the workplace, so it fits in exactly with what we do.

I must say also there is an element of self-interest in it, too, because we want to connect with the new generation of environmentally aware young people entering the workplace. All the studies we have done, all the surveys we have done, they say, or 8 out of 10 of them say, unions should be doing more in this territory. They are right. We have to acknowledge that, and we want to do more.

So, we are using the Carbon Trust grant, and it is great that there is a report. We have been able to appoint Caroline Molloy as the Project Manager for that. Working with Philip Pearson and TUSDAC unions we want to step up, as the Minister was saying, at Congress House itself so that Congress House goes green, and maybe a little red at the same time. We accept that challenge in Congress House and in the regions as well. We want to make every workplace a green workplace. We are up for the challenge.

Frances O'Grady: Brilliant. Thank you, Paul. Tom, we have already acknowledged the support of the Carbon Trust, and thank you for that, for the trade union movement's work on the green workplace project this year. One of the issues about this agenda for me is that sometimes it rivals the trade union movement in terms of jargon. I would find it really helpful for somebody to explain to me what does it mean in plain language when the Minister was posing us the challenge of being 'carbon neutral'. What would that mean for the TUC?

Tom Delay: Thank you very much, Frances. I will do my best to put it in plain language as it is a complex concept, and with a couple of very simple words to articulate it. To put it in that context I think it might help if we started to think not about the carbon emissions but more about the products and services that we all consume. The reality is that everything we do comes with a carbon price tag. It is the carbon embedded in the materials, in the manufacturing, and the delivery of the products and services that we all enjoy. We know that the UK emits about 164m tonnes of carbon a year. We take into account the import/export balance, and we know that we consume in the products and services that we all enjoy about 176m tonnes of carbon a year. That is the UK's carbon footprint, taking into account imported goods. Recreation and leisure would account for about 32m tonnes of that, space heating about 24m tonnes of carbon, commuting is about 13m tonnes of carbon, and so on and so on.

To try and understand what that means to organisations and businesses today, let us just think of a typical organisation that we would work with as part of our efforts to reduce the UK's carbon footprint. The first step is to reduce energy waste; in doing so you can save a huge amount of money. We know that the Northern TUC manufacturing survey highlighted the high cost of energy as the number one issue at the moment and we recognise that there are significant steps that we can make not only to reduce carbon emissions but also to save money and improve competitiveness. Last year we identified carbon savings of almost 4m tonnes of CO2 but those represent cost savings of £390m per annum. That is very very significant, indeed. It is also where we are rolling up our sleeves and getting stuck in with organisations - and we worked with over 5,000 organisations on site last yea - and that is where the work that we are doing with the TUC kicks in. That is step one.

Step two would be to look down the supply chain and up to the consumer to identify further opportunities to save carbon. I am going to take just one very simple example, a newspaper. Most of the carbon embedded in a newspaper comes in the manufacture of the paper pulp and if that is from a source that has hydro-electrical nuclear power behind it, maybe from Scandinavia, it will be a low carbon newspaper. If you manufacture the paper pulp in this country the chances are it will be a higher carbon newspaper because it will be reliant on electricity that has been generated from gas or from coal. So, if you actually want to reduce the carbon embedded in your newspaper, either find a clean energy source or move to online publishing as a different business model.

We believe there are huge growth opportunities in new low carbon technologies and we are actively engaged and investing in a number of areas where we believe the UK has a truly advantaged position. In particular, we would look to offshore wind, wave, and tidal stream technologies where there is a real opportunity to leverage the UK's experience in the oil and gas sector going forward. This really could create thousands of jobs and very significant export markets for UK businesses.

Step three, and only step three, if you have really done steps one and two, is to buy carbon offsets to cover the cost of your remaining emissions. You pay for projects, usually in the developing world, that will reduce carbon emissions by an equivalent amount to your emissions at home in the UK and you become carbon neutral. The issue is that, if you chose to offset all your current emissions, you will pay more while not directly reducing emissions here in the UK. If you do steps one and two first, you will save money, you will improve competitiveness, and you will have a direct impact on UK emissions. That is what we are here to help you do.

Frances O'Grady: Excellent, thank you, Tom. This is the moment when we get to put questions to the panel from delegates and first up is Dawn Nelson from the Transport and General Workers' Union. I think Dawn has a question for us about greening the workplace.

Dawn Nelson (Transport and General Workers' Union): As trade unionists we want to get involved in promoting greening the workplace but if the Government wants action across workplaces in the country there will need to be legal rights for the trade union reps who are already under pressure dealing with a whole range of other issues in the workplace. What is the Government planning to do about rights for reps on the environment?

Frances O'Grady: Okay, I think that is one for David.

David Miliband: The responsibility for this is obviously with the Department for Trade & Industry, Dawn, and they have a review going on at the moment, as you know from other discussions about rights at work, on how the agenda that has been taken forward over the last 10 years should be taken further forward. That is, if you like, the official answer to your question, it is being looked at in a serious way as part of a wider discussion about the role of trade unions at work.

What I would say to you as well, though, is that if you are looking for common ground between an employer and employees, whether they be in the public sector, the private sector, or the voluntary sector, this is a way to serve the interests of employees and the interests of the company or the organisation at the same time. The people that we met today, the workplace reps from Amicus at Legal & General, were talking about how they had been involved in the design of a new building which is going to be low energy use, so it is going to save the company money. They have special facilities for cycling and transport to work, and car-sharing schemes which benefit them, they said. They have a whole new drive on recycling at work and they have found common ground.

Brendan can offer his reflections but my sense was that it had brought unions and managers together in two ways, one, they had a common interest but, two, they have found a way to reach out to employees and potential members. So, the union reps were saying, 'This allows us to talk to the next generation of employees.' The personnel department were saying, 'This allows us to motivate them.' So, I think there is a win-win there.

Frances O'Grady: Thanks, David. David has a point, perhaps, Paul. After all, we have more and more green agreements being signed, we have more environmental reps in workplaces around the country, why do we need legal rights?

Paul Noon: The question is if it is indeed, and we agree with this, the biggest challenge we face it needs a proportionate response. I had been hoping that David would come ready with an announcement for us today. We have had lots of discussions with ministers who recognise it is an issue and I hope we come to a sensible conclusion on it. The truth is that it is not enough to rely only on those employers who will do this voluntarily because we hear example after example of representatives and of shop stewards who want to go on some of the excellent courses that we can provide but are prevented from doing so by their employers. It may be the case that their employers are short-sighted but it needs that further injection really to make it happen.

Frances O'Grady: Tom, why should business bother? Why should it be bothered about trade union or worker involvement on this agenda?

Tom Delay: I think dealing with the issue of the environment and tackling climate change is a business opportunity in its own right and almost all forward-looking businesses recognise that. There are opportunities to make significant savings and increase productivity but there are also opportunities to move into new markets and create new jobs. I have to say if we look at business, and we work with almost a third of the FTSE 100 but also thousands of smaller businesses, and you look at the roll call they come from all sectors of the economy but they tend to be the leading companies in each of those sectors. I think that is quite interesting. We tend to be working with leading businesses. Our job is to move those who are maybe not quite so advanced in their thinking into the same place.

Frances O'Grady: Thank you. I want to move us on to energy prices. I know that is an area of key concern and we have had a couple of questions on this area from Helen Rose from Unison and George Bloom from Amicus. I am going to take those two questions together. So, we have Rose and Bloom. We could open a garden centre!

Rose Bloom (UNISON): Thank you, Frances. The privatisation of the electricity industry has resulted in record increases in energy costs which are having a devastating effect on British industry and increasing the number suffering from fuel poverty. I would like to ask, does the panel think that the market is the right framework to deliver secure and affordable energy in the 21^st century?

Frances O'Grady: Thank you. George?

George Bloom (AMICUS): Good morning. Rising energy prices seem likely to frustrate the Government's ambition to end fuel poverty by 2010. Since 2003 electricity prices have risen by well over 11%. What is the Government going to do to lower the energy prices?

Frances O'Grady: I think you can get the mood of the Congress on that one, David.

David Miliband: I thought that was a question for Paul, actually.

Frances O'Grady: Is the energy market working in the UK interest?

David Miliband: The price of oil is not set for the UK, it is a global price. Since 2003, George is absolutely right, the price of oil has rocketed up to $70 a barrel. That has a paradoxical effect. On the one hand it makes all sorts of renewable energy suddenly much more competitive. That is very very significant from an environmental point of view. The downside, obviously, is that it is more expensive for people and it is a special problem for those who are fuel poor.

I would say two things about that. One, we respond by raising the efforts we put into energy efficiency. What we find is that it is often the poorest households that have the least loft insulation and other cavity wall insulation that makes a difference. That is why we have the Warm Front programme and the Chancellor doubled in the last budget the amount of investment that is going into tackling energy inefficiency. Actually, we help the environment and we help the poor if we can do that.

I think the second thing to say is that the winter fuel allowance, which was brought in, I think, in 1998 and at the time energy prices were not what they are today, is not counted in the statistics for measuring fuel poverty but actually its time has come. That £200 now arrives and 17,000 of my constituents, who are of pensionable age and receive the winter fuel allowance in South Shields, can now see that that actually is a direct contribution to the energy costs issue.

So, I think this is an international issue, not just a UK issue, and whatever views you have about whether you should have a nationalised industry or a privatised industry in the UK you are going to face the same price of energy, or of oil. What you have to do is diversify and that is why the wind power argument has become so important, it is why the tidal issues that Tom was talking about are so important as well.

Frances O'Grady: Is that change happening fast enough? We have 100,000 manufacturing jobs a year going. Is the change going to happen fast enough or have we got to tackle issues around the market and around prices now?

David Miliband: It is not happening fast enough. That is evidently true. 4% of our energy comes from renewables at the moment rather than the 15-20% that is in other European countries. What do we do about that? We have taken some pretty dramatic steps. Number one, we have said we want 20% of our energy to come from renewables and we will have a legislative obligation for that to happen. Second, we are spending a billion pounds a year subsidising renewable technology and its development. A lot of these technologies are not yet ready for production. We are putting our money where our mouth is in a way that no other European country is doing. The third thing we have to do, and the energy review highlighted this, is we have to find a way of making sure that the barriers that still exist to renewable energy are actually overcome. In other European countries if you have solar panels on your house you can sell any excess electricity back into the grid. Those are the sorts of things we are looking at. You can do that whatever the ownership structure.

Frances O'Grady: Tom, Paul, have we been left exposed? There is faith in the free market approach but is it leaving us vulnerable?

Tom Delay: I think I would just like to make one point of fact, really, which is that although energy prices have risen very dramatically over the last two to three years with dramatic consequences for UK manufacturing and business at large, and of course for the consumer now paying in many cases the second or third price increase they have seen in the last year, we had seen before that through a period of privatisation but also liberalisation wholesale energy prices coming down for a decade. Really, we have seen a gradual reduction in prices over the previous decade followed by a very sharp increase. That has taken, I think, a lot of people by surprise. It is a very unpleasant surprise to face up to. All I can say is that it is a thumping great incentive, really, to tackle the issue of energy waste.

Frances O'Grady: Paul?

Paul Noon: I think there are problems because of the limits of the market in dealing with these issues. Left to its own devices the market will take a short-term view based upon the highest level of reward and not necessarily a longer-term environmental view. It is how the Government intervenes and regulates the market where we believe more needs to be done. I do think, and it connects with this, there is also a bit of an issue about the Government's enthusiasm for choice which is connected with markets. This is an area, really, where if we are to make the sort of progress we want, then frankly the choice of individuals, the choice of companies, the choice of industry in what they do has to be limited and they cannot have the choice to pollute.

Frances O'Grady: Let us move on to some of the positive opportunities about renewables. We are in Brighton with the sun, waves and tides. Kath Owen from the GMB has a question on this area.

Kath Owen (GMB): The UK has a world lead in marine technology and wave and tidal power. We have already exported plants to Portugal, yet we see no full-scale plants in the UK. The same is true of clean coal. Again, we have no full-scale plants. The green economy should be providing UK manufacturing. When will the Government support the development of full-scale wave power and clean coal plants in the UK?

Frances O'Grady: I think you can understand that there is a fair bit of frustration, David. The UK is famous for developing the technologies but are we going to reap the employment benefits?

David Miliband: Let me say what we are doing and, Kathy, you can come back and tell me whether you think it is enough. In respect of renewables overall, a billion pounds a year in subsidy is going in to make sure that we develop the renewables of the future. We have a highly regulated market. There is subsidy going in precisely there. But you raised two specific issues about investment and I can give you answers directly on those two questions.

The first is about tidal. In the Orkneys there is a fantastic tidal power station, effectively. The Government have got something called the Marine Renewables Fund and £50 million is in that. We have just announced a £4.5 million project in Cornwall which replicates precisely the Portuguese example that you were talking about. In your question you said that Portugal has developed this wave and tidal power. We are putting £4.5 million into what is called 'The Hub' in Cornwall, which is doing precisely that, so that is a direct answer to what you are saying.

In respect to clean coal, £20 million, which is a very considerable sum, is being invested directly into developing the carbon capture and clean coal ideas. I hope you do not feel that we are doing nothing, because we are doing quite a lot. If you think there are ways that we can push harder and further, we are happy to look at them, but this is something which is massively in the Government's interest as well as in the country's interest and we are seeking to do it as fast as we can.

Frances O'Grady: I do not know whether there is anyone from the NUM or BACM-TEAM in the hall who wants to follow-up on that particular issue around clean coal? Kathy is coming back.

Kath Owen: Scotland is the home of marine technology but the UK free market is not buying it.

David Miliband: This is a really interesting point because we have massive amounts of wind power, potentially, in Scotland and why is it not being developed? It is not because of a lack of private sector investment, not because of a lack of public sector investment but because it is blocked in the planning system. Essentially -- when you get into the telephone numbers you lose them -- there is the equivalent of 20 per cent of our total energy supply stuck in the planning system. Nine gigawatts - that is a lot of energy - or 20 per cent of our energy supply is stuck in the planning system because people object to having wind turbines because they do not like them, and there is a clash between landscape and the environment in producing low carbon energy. I have a very clear view about this. You cannot be for renewable energy and against wind power. It just does not make sense. We have to make sure that we have a planning system which serves the majority interest rather than the minority interest.

Frances O'Grady: Tom.

Tom Delay: The one point I would make as a general comment is that all these technologies are very new. The trouble with all low carbon technologies is that they tend to be pretty expensive at the moment. The job is to bring them down in cost as quickly as we can so that they become part of the affordable energy mix in the UK. I am delighted that the wave technology that is at the moment being deployed in Portugal is actually being manufactured here in the UK and we are an investor in that company. I am pleased we are. The reality is that we need to get more investment into these very early stage technologies to help them come down in cost. It does not help, I have to say, when the planning system and grid issues prevent the deployment of these very early units to companies which are too small to bear five years delay as part of their planning cycle. They have to be able to get on with it fast.

Frances O'Grady: What about other obstacles, Paul? What about skills? Are we skills ready for the opportunities here?

Paul Noon: We are in danger, actually, in losing some of the skills that we need. There has been insufficient focus on skills. I know it is something that the Learning & Skills Council is picking up and something that some of the sector skills councils are picking up, but more needs to be done.

Frances O'Grady: I am going to move on to a question about public transport. I call Piscilla from the RMT. From the trade union perspective, we see transport as a key dimension of this agenda.

Priscilla Dada (RMT): My union has just commissioned an opinion poll which shows that two-thirds of people believe that more money should be invested in public transport for the sake of the environment. If we are serious about greening Britain and reducing harmful emissions, then railways must be a key part of the solution. So is it not time that we took some serious steps towards making rail travel attractive, affordable and available to all?

Francis O'Grady: Minister, is there any announcement you want to make on that?

David Miliband: I was absolutely dreading a question about transport because I do not know anything about transport. Do we need to make the railways affordable and attractive? Yes. How do we do it? I do not know.

I would say that only 6 per cent of journeys are done by train and buses, especially if you think about my part of the world, which is the north-east, are a huge part of the transport mix. What Alistair Darling said and what Douglas Alexander is taking forward is that the system of bus regulation in London is completely different from the system of bus regulation elsewhere in the country, and they have said they want to try and get into why the bus system is working in London and why it is not working elsewhere. I think that that is, actually, an important step forward.

Frances O'Grady: So did you come on the train today?

David Miliband: I certainly did come on the train and I am going back on the train. We are transport friendly in that regard, but I do not bicycle to work with a fleet of Humvees behind me like David Cameron.

Frances O'Grady: Tom, did you come by train?

Tom Delay: I did come by train and I am going back by train.

Frances O'Grady: Paul?

Paul Noon: I came by car because I was playing cricket for the TUC, unsuccessfully, but I am going back by train.

Let me comment on the question, although I am perhaps not best placed to comment as the general secretary of a union which represents air traffic controllers. Even in that position we see the case for civil air transport, but it is a bit daft that some of the delegates here from Scotland will have flown down because it is cheaper to fly than it is to get the train in many cases. Again, however the market is structured, it really does need to be done in such a way that the polluting effect of air travel is taken fully into account.

Frances O'Grady: Brilliant. I am afraid that our time is up. I think we have had some excellent sessions and pretty good answers. Everything that we have heard today in this session confirms the urgency of the challenge of the dangers of climate change, and the potential contribution that we can all make as trade union representatives.

I am sure that you will want to join me in thanking our panel for giving their time to be with us today as well as our questioners. Thank you. To Tom Delay, the chief executive of the Carbon Trust, Paul Noon from the General Council and TUSDAC and, of course, our distinguished guest speaker, David Miliband.